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| Atlatls - What are the facts? |
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| message from G Horvat on 2000/05/03 |
After reading a couple excerpts pertaining to atlatls (shown below), I
sought to find information concerning the Asian spear throwers.
"The oldest atlatls in the world date back over 25,000 years in N.W
Africa. The late Upper Paleolithic Magdalenian peoples of Europe made
beautifully carved specimens from antler and bone 17,000 years ago.
Immigrants from Siberia likely brought the atlatl to North
America, where it was used to hunt large animals by at least
10,000-12,000 years ago. Atlatl spears were likely tipped with the
large flaked stone points that archaeologists find associated with
remains of now-extinct mammoth and bison, as well as other large game
animals."
http://rbcm1.rbcm.gov.bc.ca/hhistory/atlatl/atlatl.html
"Over 12,000 years ago, hunters tracking herds of the last ice age
across the frozen tundra of what is now the state of Alaska became the
first immigrants to enter the North American continent. These
hunter-gatherers brought with them a weapon that reigned supreme among
them and their descendents for thousands of years to come, the Atlatl.
It was the first true weapon system developed by humans, originating
in Europe over 30,000 years ago and spreading to every corner of the
globe that humans occupied."
http://arcticculture.about.com/culture/arcticculture/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.atlatl.com/archeology.html
Although I only spent an hour or so, I did not find any references to
Siberian or Mongolian spear throwers but I did find at least one
suggestion that the Native American atlatl may have been an
independent innovation:
"As Dixon sees it, the initial colonization took place about 13,500
B.P. when people moved down along the west coast of the continent in
small watercraft. These people used the atlatl or spear thrower with a
detachable point similar to a harpoon, which he says may have derived
from technology geared toward hunting marine mammals."
http://www.archaeology.org/9911/etc/books.html
Could there be some discussion about the dissemination of spear
thrower technology around the world?
Gisele
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| Bob Keeter replied to G Horvat on 2000/05/04 |
In article
Snippage. . . . . .
I think I saw one other poster refering to the "balancing" stone
weights used on the atlatls in Canada. They were used in the southwest
US as well. The common local term is "medicine stones". Have a
feeling that this was either a "Hollywoodish" attempt to name something
that had long been forgotten or a similar attempt to appear
knowledgable by an intoxicated shaman! ;-) I do not know of any
examples of atlatls or spear throwers from any other region that had
anything similar (counter examples are most welcome!). The European,
Austrailian and even polar (Inuit, etc) atlatls were rather inflexible
sticks with hooks in the end. They extended the arm and gave more
leverage (and could throw a quite heavy spear quite efficiently).
The North American and Mesoamerican versions were quite flexible (more
like extremely light and "whippy" golf club shafts than stiff sticks),
designed to combine with spear flexure to impart a truely amazing
initial velocty to a small, relatively light weight spear (actually an
oversized arrow complete with fletching and usually called a "dart").
The stone weight on the atlatl apparently did several things at once.
It helped to balance the spear/atlatl making it easier to hold a
position stealthly waiting for the best opportunity to let go. It also
seems to have had a real "silencing" effect on the noise of using the
atlatl when compared to the same setup without the stone. BUT my
personal opinion, supported by a few others, is that the weight
dynamically tuned the system (i.e. spear, atlatl, and thrower's
arm/shoulder/torso/legs) to optimize energy transfer to the dart.
The dart itself was a bit of a work-of-art as well. Imagine a quite
long arrow with feather fletching on the back end and a socket on the
front. A short shaft with stone point was fitted into the socket and
you were ready to go. Fire the dart into a prey animal and the point
gets driven quite deeply while the main shaft quickly pulls loose and
falls out of the wound (strikingly like the toggle headed harpoons
usied by the Inuit and possibly the Dorset cultures). Supposedly this
saved the shaft from being broken as the wounded animal struggles. I
guess that the long flexible but straight dart shafts are just as hard
to come by in the desert south-west US as they were in the high arctic!
All in all, the american atlatl a quite well engineered, and carefully
"thought out", neolythic "big game rifle!".
As for the comments regarding the "points".. . . . . Many of the
stone points found in N. America are simply too large and heavy to be
"arrowheads" and at the same time much too small to be of much use in a
stabbing spear. I think that its these intermediate sized points that
are being discussed. I do know that some authentic atlatl darts that
have been recovered and studied did have the "middle sized" points.
Did quite a bit of stirring around once upon a time because I was a
tour guide to the Coso Range petroglyph sites and one of the main
motiffs is the atlatl.
There are several fellows who are either on the net (references follow)
or published in various books regarding the atlatl (american flavor).
There is even a growing group of "archaics" who go hunting today with
atlatls during archery season. A bit of overkill for a whitetail, but
works just fine! By the way, the modern record for launching an atlatl
dart is 848.5 feet (David Engalls of St. Joseph, Missouri). Imagine the
force behind that dart at a more reasonable hunting range of 25-50
meters against a specific animal or the impact of the stremelined and
obsidian tipped dart falling from almost 400 ft above the ground to
land in the mist of a herd!
As a point of comparison, if you consider the Olympic javelin history.
"On May 25, 1996, current World record holder Jan Zeleny destroyed the
current world record with a throw of 98.48 meters--quick calculation
gives us 322 feet, 13.5 inches!" If he threw his javelin, ran to the
spot, grabbed the javelin and threw again, AND repeated the same run
and world record effort AGAIN, he would surpass the single Atlatl toss
by about 115 feet! Bet thats why they dont allow atlatls in the
Olympic competition! ;-))
URLs
http://www.atlatl.com/authatlatl.html
http://www.abotech.com/articles/Perkins03.htm
http://www.worldatlatl.org/
http://netnow.micron.net/~atlatl/atlatlfq.htm
http://members.aol.com/bnewsarch/bn23.htm
Lots more if you go to "northernlight.com" and look for "atlatl"!
Regards
bk
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| trailmarker replied to Bob Keeter on 2000/05/04 |
The most interesting atlatls, are those that served also as
staff mounted swords, such as the Alpha cursive and "L" shaped
points. These come in all sizes (some were used as arrowheads),
but the larger ones were capable of removing a hand or foot at
the wrist or ankle. They could also be used to capture or slay
rattlesnakes. Many of these (forged and not flaked) points would
be considered (because many bear art and language)medicine
stones. Bob
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| G Horvat replied to Bob Keeter on 2000/05/06 |
Thanks to all who responded to my query and a special thanks to Bob
Keeter for providing javelin Olympic record distances for comparison.
For a tool that originated at least 20,000 years ago, the atlatl
appears to be quite ingenious.
The reason I brought up the subject was because an atlatl hook made
from deer antler was described as an "unexpected find" at the Windover
site in Florida.
http://www.nbbd.com/godo/history/windover/
I'm interested in the Windover site because the mtDNA lineages
obtained from the exceptionally well-preserved remains at this site
(7,000 - 8,000 BP) are different than those belonging to the 4 main
Native American founding haplogroups (ABCD) although at least 1
lineage might be part of haplogroup X which is currently only known to
be shared between Native Americans and Europeans (This lineage has the
same HVRI variants but Torroni et al. would have liked more
information before classifying it as such). I was, then, hoping to
find out more about the origin and continuity of these inhabitants who
are thought to have been fairly sedentary due to the expectation that
the "flexible cloth" found at this site was woven on looms.
<snip>
Can you provide any names of points which were likely propelled with
the atlatl?
Interesting.
Some questions for whomever:
It is continually claimed that spear throwers were first used in
Europe 20,000 years ago. Which part of Euorpe? Are these associated
with the tools of the Solutrean phase?
What is known about the earliest dates of the Australian and New
Guinea spear throwers? How do these tools compare with the European
or earliest Native American versions?
From whom did the Inuit likely derive the concept of the atlatl?
I think it has been stated that spear throwers were used in certain
parts of Asia - which parts and when?
Gisele
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| Bob Keeter replied to G Horvat on 2000/05/06 |
Snip. . . . .
Very interesting site!
Most interesting! Along the same lines, do you have any genetic data
on the "Red Paint People" of the Northeast coast? With the widespread
use of DNA testing to trace origins, these people (called "Red Paint"
because of the use of red ochre in their burials) just might have a
story to tell. At least one of the "radical" theories have these
coastal people tracing roots back to Europe where red ochre was also
used in very similar ways. If these people ended up being classic
"Amerinds", the theory is bunk, if not, well. . . . . . . . ;-)
It was interesting the level of sophistication suggested by the
artifacts and the "rough life" indicated by the "bumps and bruises" of
what can only be assumed to be combat. A good question might be "With
whom were they fighting?" (Maybe some more discovering to do! ;-) )
Snippage. . . . . . . . . .
I think a lot of the smaller Clovis style points are simply too small
for a stabbing spear or hand thrown javelin (which depends to a great
degree on size and weight for effectiveness). I dont think that there
is too much evidence for bows in the new world much before about 4-6000
ybp, so any of the smaller points from periods earlier could be
suspected as dart points. There is a quite good book (at least in
terms of describing, provenancing and displaying a LOT of N. American
points called "The Overstreet Indian Arrowheads Identification and
Price Guide". While it may be a bit un-PC to talk about collecting and
selling "arrowheads", the pictures in the book are very good and the
price is very right! ($20 but available for 1/2 that on the "discount
racks"!)
Snip. . . . . . . .
If Im catching the drift, check:
http://www.discoveringarcheology.com/0799toc/7special12-solutrean.shtml
The oldest incontrovertible evidence for "spear throwers" in Europe
appears to be around 19-20kya, but a lot of "neolythic" technology
seems to be getting pushed back in time, ala the javelins found in the
Baltic lignite mine (even pre-Neanderthal!). Would not be surprised if
the "spear thrower" ended up going quite a bit further back than now
guestimated.
I'll do some digging in some old books and post what I find.
Other than the comments in the earlier post, will have to do some more
investigating. Have my suspicions that the woomera came to Austrailia
in some form or another with the original inhabitants. No evidence,
just suspicion.
Possibly an independent invention but almost certainly from the
Eurasian model. If you think about trying to throw a harpoon with some
considerable force while seated in a kayak, I think that the purpose is
easy to understand.
Regards
bk
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| David Menere replied to G Horvat on 2000/05/04 |
A few observations for starters, based on my experience using Australian
aboriginal spear throwers, and a reading of a few atlatl websites.
Atlatl people seem to be at pains to distinguish their weapon of choice from
the common or garden spear-thrower on the basis of the claimed dynamics of
the atlatl. The spear's longitudinal flexing is claimed to translate into
greater kinetic energy and provide better separation from the spear thrower.
All spears develop some longitudinal oscillation on release from the spear
thrower notch. The timing of this oscillation could conceivably assist
clean separation. However, the claim of translation of longitudinal flex
energy into kinetic energy in the direction of travel is questionable. Try
putting one end of a springy stick on the ground and press the other end
down to bow the stick, then release it. How high does the stick jump? Not
very much- ie not much energy is stored this way.
A bit of high school physics can show that the claimed hitting energy of the
atlatl comes from the fact that it is lighter than a conventional spear, but
travels significantly faster- and since kinetic energy equals 0.5 mass times
velocity squared, the greater velocity makes a significantly increased
contribution to the final kinetic energy.
I would guess that atlatls are at the light weight end of the spear weight
spectrum, and that depending on the time and place, spear throwers have been
used in combination with spears of all weights. Australian aboriginal spears
I would intuitively class as heavy, but that may reflect how the available
materials were used.
David
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| James Bandow replied to David Menere on 2000/05/04 |
: I would guess that atlatls are at the light weight end of the spear weight
: spectrum, and that depending on the time and place, spear throwers have been
: used in combination with spears of all weights. Australian aboriginal spears
: I would intuitively class as heavy, but that may reflect how the available
: materials were used.
It would also depend on whether atlatl weights or "bannerstones" (as they
are called in Canada) were deployed in a given weapon system.
jbb
___PICO 3.4 "If I Knew What I Was Doing, It Wouldn't Be Research!"
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| trailmarker replied to James Bandow on 2000/05/04 |
Archaeologists have failed to recognize that the ancient method
of side-mounting points (to a shaft that was usually bamboo like
river reed, ground to approx a 45 degree bevel) often gave you
not just an arrowhead, but an atlatl. That is one arrow could be
used to hurl another. My own experiance was going out in the
desert with no tools, and making workable weapons with available
materials. Of course, this method was discovered after finding
many art bearing eolithic (art that was veiled to bright light)
points, and experimenting with mounting methods. Bob
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